Discipline for Promoting
Responsibility and Learning

An Interview about Where We Are Going

with Michael F. Shaughnessy
Eastern New Mexico University

1. Your book and VCR are quite extensively used in the schools nowadays. To what do you attribute this?

The approach uses common sense. It is a total system.  It is both simple and comprehensive, employing universal principles that apply to people of all ages. It promotes both responsible behavior and a desire to WANT to put forth effort to learn. Finally, it improves relationships and increases effectiveness.

I also believe that teachers more and more are realizing that their most significant influence on young people is not necessarily when they are WITH students but when they are NOT WITH them. Successful teachers empower their students. This is one reason that I do not use external manipulators or coercive threats and punishments. These approaches are totally ineffective when no one is around to monitor behavior. Besides, an increasing number of teachers understand that rewarding young people for expected standards of conduct is not only counterproductive for promoting responsible behavior but also wrought with problems. More on external approaches are available at AboutDiscipline.com.

Another factor may be that a number of nationally used textbooks in teacher preparation have devoted chapters to my system and indicate the effectiveness of it. This has led to an increase in interest among new teachers who are sharing The Discipline Without Stress^® Teaching Model.

Following is an example:

It had been more difficult to teach my course before your book came to my attention, but now the student teachers can see that your ideas, strategies, and practices make sense and provide results. As the student teachers get their credentials and begin their teaching careers without using rewards and punishments, I am hopeful that we will have an exponential effect of also having more classrooms in which to place new student teachers so that the theory and practice are paired. The student teachers' conviction and enthusiasm to the approach has also influenced some of our current cooperating teachers to buy your book.

Thank you for your work, and I look forward to getting your newsletter.

~Joy~

Joy L. Pelton

Folsom/Cordova Center Coordinator

Department of Teacher Education

California State University, Sacramento

2. I have enjoyed your Oliver Wendell Holmes story about the issue as to where we are going. With all this emphasis on Annual Yearly Progress and the re-authorization of NCLB, where indeed are we heading? Can you tell us the story to set the context for this interview?

As the train conductor made his way down the aisle collecting tickets, the forgetful Oliver Wendell Holmes saw him coming. The Associate Justice reached into his pocket—first into one, then into another, then into a third pocket. When the conductor arrived in front of the then frantic Justice Holmes, the conductor said, "That's all right, Mr. Holmes. I know who you are. When you arrive home and find your ticket, just mail it in." Mr. Holmes replied, "You don't understand. It's not the ticket I'm concerned about; it's where I am going."

Too often educators make policies without considering where implementation of the policy leads them. Just consider all the education reforms in the last few years. NCLB is a perfect example. Classes that enrich for growth—such as art, music, science, and physical education—are being eliminated. Yet these are courses that can assist in improving skills in many area—including math and reading. NCLB lacks any emphasis on creating a responsible citizenry. Learning how to read and write alone are not sufficient for a functioning democracy. As an aside, NCLB is based on a negative foundation. No educational policy based on negativity endures for very long.

3. Can you tell us about your free monthly newsletter entitled, "Promoting Responsibility & Learning"? What kinds of topics are addressed?

Subscribers now number over 14,000 from around the world. Wherever I have presented (43 of the United States and in 14 countries on five continents), people are drawn to what I share because of its common sense, simplicity, and effectiveness.

Each issue of "Promoting Responsibility & Learning" includes the following topics:

1. Welcome (and general items of interest)
2. Promoting Responsibility
3. Increasing Effectiveness
4. Improving Relationships
5. Promoting Learning
6. Discipline without Stress
7. Testimonials and Research

As indicated, subscription is free, and anyone can unsubscribe at anytime. Apparently, an ever-growing number of people find the investment in reading the newsletter worth their time. To subscribe, a person simply enters the e-mail address in the box on any of my websites listed later.  It is a double opt-in system to prevent spam. E-mails are never shared.

4. Your book "Discipline without Stress" has been out there for several years. Any idea as to how many schools use and refer to it?

Since the book was published in 2001, 40,000 copies have been sold so far. I've heard it said that the book is perhaps the best ever published on how to discipline and promote learning.

The comments on the homepage for the book give an indication of its popularity.

Here is an example I recently received from a high school science teacher:

"I ordered your book a few years ago. Loved it! Loaned it. And lost it. So I ordered it again. This is the best book I have read on teaching in the classroom."--Laura Fair, Science Teacher, Kenowa Hills High School, Grand Rapids, Michigan.

The second edition of the book is now available. This version is essentially the same as the 4th printing of the first edition with the exception that the new version includes examples from people who have implemented the ideas and attest to their effectiveness.

There are a number of schools that have a book club devoted to discussions of the book. Not long ago when I presented to the Canada's Alberta Teachers Association, the very large room was overflowing with members of, as the association labeled it, the "Marvin Marshall Book Club." People brought their books for me to autograph and many told me that they were embarrassed by the number of postal notes attached to so many pages. This is a common occurrence since the book is not written as a traditional education book. The entire book deals with "how to" rather than the usual, "what needs to be done."

The book shares a number of extremely useful concepts that teachers and parents can share with young people.  Here are just two:

Perfection is a burden no human being should ever carry. Excellent work, superior work, outstanding work, yes—but never perfection! You cannot learn and be perfect at the same time.

Regardless of the situation (at home), stimulation (he hit me first), or urge (I couldn't help myself), you still have the choice as to your response. You may not be able to change the situation, stimulation, or urge, but when you walk into the classroom you are making a choice—to learn or not to learn.

This latter point was emphasized in my Commentary in Education Week, "Rethinking Our Thinking on Discipline: Empower Rather than Overpower." Of all the ideas in the article, the editor chose to highlight the following:

“Teaching young people about choice-response thinking—that they need not be victims—may be one of the most valuable thinking patterns we can give them.”

To be more specific in answering the question, I have no idea how many people have read or used the book. However, many people have told me to advise others NEVER to loan the book to someone else because you will never get it back.

5. Can you tell us about your blog.

I recently attended a seminar where a speaker convinced me that I could "spread the word" to more people if I were to have a web log (blog). I acted on the advice.

The site is referred to as “Discipline for Smart People” because this type of person understands that no one can coerce another person into changing one’s mind. The most effective approach for changing behavior is to induce the person to influence himself.

The welcome page states that "Discipline for Smart People" carries two fundamental characteristics. The first is that the stress associated with discipline is significantly reduced. The second is that external manipulators are not used because they are counterproductive to promoting long-term responsibility. This includes rewards for appropriate behavior. Similarly, threats and punishments are not IMPOSED. Punishments (be they referred to as “logical” or “natural”) are based on the idea that a person needs to be harmed in order to be taught, to be hurt in order to learn. I just don't believe this.

The articles are short so that people will find them worth visiting on a regular basis.

6. I understand that you were recently in South Africa. What did you do there?

I went to South Africa with a delegation of California School Administrators sponsored by the People to People Ambassador Program.

During my presentation (one of only two of the 35 delegates who were asked to speak), I shared my teaching model to help implement their goal of “developing socially responsible citizens in South Africa.”

7. What kinds of assistance is found at your website?

MarvinMarshall.com is the foundational site that contains free information explaining the entire system. This site includes such links as The Discipline Without Stress^® Teaching Model, The Hierarchy of Social Development, A Quick Start, A Letter Worth Reading, A Principal's Experience, support links, and other links to implement the program immediately.

My aim is to have teachers increase their joy of teaching, reduce stress, improve relationships, and become more effective. All the menu links on the left sidebar are explained in detail by scrolling down past the cartoon at MarvinMarshall.com.

In addition to this main website, here are other sites to help teachers and parents:

Discipline Without Stress is the website for the best-selling book on discipline and learning. Three sections of the book are online: Classroom Meetings, Collaboration for Quality Learning, and Reducing Perfectionism.

groups.yahoo.com/group/DisciplineWithoutStress.com is used to post questions, share ideas, and give assistance.

Discipline Answers is a compilation of previously asked questions and posted answers categorized from the above Yahoo site.

About Discipline explains reasons why external approaches—such as rewarding appropriate behavior, telling students what to do, and punishing them if they don’t—are not used. These approaches do not promote long-lasting responsible behavior.

The web log (blog). It contains short posts to help implement the totally noncoercive—but not permissive—approach.

8. I think that it is often imperative to review previously learned material. Do you find that some teachers need additional review?

A major if not THE major LEARNING MISTAKE is that teachers assume they can teach something once, or have students read something once, or practice a procedure once and then expect students to remember it. This is simply contrary to how the brain operates. The brain images pictures, not words. The vast majority of material that is read is not remembered—unless it is visualized or experienced in such ways that will go into long-term memory.

The same is true with a procedure. Unless a procedure is modeled, practiced, and reinforced in order to make new neural connections, it will be lost. It is rare to be exposed to something just once and retain it with 100 per cent accuracy.

Even though my approach is simple and becomes easy with practice, it also needs to be periodically reviewed. Just thinking with positivity is an example. For example, if your supervisor informs you in the morning to stop by the office before leaving for the day, the mind almost automatically thinks, “What did I do wrong?” This is a negative and disempowering thought. But you have no idea what the conversation will be about. You assume the conversation will be a negative one. The point is that we often leap to negative thoughts. Because of this tendency to think in negative—rather than in positive—terms, we constantly need to review our self-talk.

Here is an example a teacher can use with students. A student’s self-talk can be, “I HAVE to go to school today.” The negative talk prompts a negative, disempowering feeling. Notice the difference when the student’s self-talk is, “I GET to go to school today.” Young people can be thought to think and self-talk in positive terms. But this, too, also needs to be reviewed and reinforced.

Continual practice in thinking and communicating in positive and empowering ways is the way that this new approach becomes the brain’s default. The old negative habit needs to be replaced by the newer, in this case, positive one. 

9. School reform has now been a topic for generations but there seems to be little improvement. Any suggestions?

Any meaningful reform must affect the student-teacher relationship. I cannot think of a single school reform that started top down and was a headline twenty years ago that is still being used today.

It is important to understand that EFFORT IN LEARNING is different FROM EFFORT IN EMPLOYMENT. Education leaders have given their leadership over to government and business leaders. What reason do we have to think that legislators can improve education? On what basis can we assume that business is a model for education when every few months a new top-selling book is published on how to improve business? The Epilogue of my book goes into detail on this subject.

Another key reason is that as much as we would like to think that people operate primarily on cognition, the reality is that we act more on our emotions. Think of any item you have purchased. Now reflect on whether you actually NEEDED that item or just WANTED it. If the item was bought because you LIKED it or WANTED it, then the motivation was emotional.

Therefore, until people become wise enough to understand that education—at least in the elementary grades and in low socioeconomic areas—is based on relationships, there will always be a lack of student motivation. And the reason is simple. With every act of cognition there is an emotional involvement. I criticize you, and you feel bad. I compliment you, and you feel good. People do better when they feel good, not bad. Emotions drive attention. Attention drives learning. If a student is emotionally blocked, learning stops.

Because human beings act on emotions and because teaching and learning operate within relationships, teachers sell (think “share”) information. Learning cannot be forced. Students are continually making the choice “to buy” or “not to buy.” And in many cases how the student feels about the teacher has a great effect on whether or not to "make the purchase." A teacher can maintain high standards AND motivate students to invest a lot of energy to learn without students' harboring negative feelings about the teacher. It is important to understand here that because cognition and emotions are interrelated, improving relationships has nothing to do with a teacher's lowering of standards.

10. Positive Behavior Support is the discipline approach that is being mandated by many states. Do you have any thoughts on this approach?

I have four articles on my blog about this movement that started with helping special education students. This antiquated and backwards approach is based on the ideas of Ivan Pavlov, John B. Watson, and B.F. Skinner. Without going into detail explaining the differences, they all are "behaviorist" have the following in common.

1. Behaviorism is naturalistic. This means that the material world is the ultimate reality, and everything can be explained in terms of natural laws. Man has no soul and no mind, only a brain that responds to external stimuli.

2. Behaviorism teaches that man is nothing more than a machine that responds to conditioning. The central tenet of behaviorism is that thoughts, feelings, and intentions, mental processes all, do not determine what we do. Our behavior is the product of our conditioning. We are biological machines and do not consciously act; rather, we react to stimuli.

3. Behaviorism teaches that we are not responsible for our actions. If we are mere machines, without minds or souls, reacting to stimuli and operating on our environment to attain certain ends, then we have no control.

4. Behaviorism is manipulative. It seeks not merely to understand human behavior, but to predict and control it. Skinner developed the idea of shaping behavior by using rewards. His approach was also to ignore behavior that he did not want "reinforced." Therefore, inappropriate behavior was overlooked. Of course in the real world, if an inappropriate behavior is ignored, such behavior is naturally reinforced. Simply by the fact of ignoring such behavior, the inference is that the behavior is acceptable.

In summary, the ethical consequences of behaviorism—upon which positive behavior support is based—are immensely damaging. Humans are stripped of responsibility, freedom, and dignity; the species is reduced to a purely biological being, to be "shaped" by those who are able to use the tools of behaviorism effectively.

Following are a few postings showing the origination and the counterproductive approach of schools implementing this manipulative approach:

Positive Behavior Support - Stepping Backwards
More on Positive Behavior Support
Mandating Positive Behavior Support
Positive Behavior Support and Finding the "Why?
Positive Behavior Support and Transferring Motivation

Thanks for offering me the opportunity to share in order to improve teaching and learning.

Marv Marshall