Discipline for Promoting
Responsibility and Learning

An Interview with Marv Marshall about
Discipline without Stress^® Punishments or Rewards

with Michael F. Shaughnessy
Eastern New Mexico University

1. How can you promote responsibility and learning?

Although an adult can temporarily control a young person, no one can change how another person feels, thinks, or wants to be. External discipline and control are only temporary, as are external rewards and punishments. It is a fact of life that no one can actually change another person; people change themselves, and the least effective approach to discipline and influencing another person to change is through coercion. Coercion focuses on obedience, but obedience does not create desire. One approach that does not use coercion and that promotes self-discipline and responsible behavior and effort to learn is outlined in the Discipline Without Stress^® Teaching Model.

THERE ARE FOUR ESSENTIAL PARTS:

I. Classroom management vs. discipline

The key to classroom management is teaching procedures, and this is the teacher's responsibility, whereas discipline is about behavior and is the student's responsibility. Good classroom management means teaching procedures for everything the teacher desires the students to do, having students practice the procedures, and then reinforcing them again by revisiting the procedures periodically. Rules are either expectations or procedures. If they are procedures, they should be taught and practiced. But relying on rules instead of procedures places the teacher in the role of a cop--a rule enforcer, rather than in the role of a mentor, a facilitator of information, a coach, or a role model. This enforcement mentality automatically creates an adversarial relationship. Using the term, "Responsibilities," rather than "Rules," eliminates the natural tendency toward discipline as enforcement and has teachers working collaboratively to help students help themselves.

II. Three principles to practice:

Positivity - Always communicate so that the person perceives the communication in positive terms. People do better when they feel better.

Choice - Eliminate all coercion by using the empowerment of choice. Coercion prompts resistance.

Reflection - Improve the skill of asking reflective questions. Using reflective, self-evaluating questions is the most effective approach to actuate change in others.

III. The Raise Responsibility System

A. (Teaching) Teach the hierarchy of social development that has two unacceptable levels of behavior and two acceptable levels. The levels are outlined at http://www.marvinmarshall.com/fromajuniorhigh.html. The hierarchy has built-in choices and promotes the desire for internal motivation--rather than external manipulations of rewards or coercion through threats and punishments. See http://www.AboutDiscipline.com.

B. (Asking) To immediately stop irresponsible behavior, check for understanding by asking the student to reflect or identify the behavioral level chosen. This step enhances self-discipline.

C. (Eliciting) If irresponsible behavior continues, elicit a consequence or a procedure to help the student help him or herself. This is in contrast to the usual discipline approach of imposing a consequence that disempowers and alienates.

IV. Use the hierarchy to improve achievement.

Create mindsets or visions of the levels before an activity and then reflect after the activity to prompt students to reduce apathy and want to put forth effort to achieve at the highest level.

2. Is the discipline problem increasing, decreasing or has it stayed the same? Discipline problems are increasing. Reasons are many, but prime reasons include:

(A) The lack of teaching procedures (the key to effective classroom management) because teachers assume students know what to do without first teaching, then practicing, and then reinforcing the procedures. The more procedures are taught, the fewer discipline problems arise.

(B) The increasing use of external motivators. These include manipulation in the form of rewarding, and the use of coercion as in imposing consequences--whether labeled "natural" or "logical." When punishment is done to the person, the adversarial relationship breeds negative feelings and alienation. As long as teachers aim at doing things to young people, rather than working with them to help redirect inappropriate impulses, these young people will continue to "fix their problems" through irresponsible approaches--such as acting out and becoming discipline problems.

3. It seems that as long as you are putting 20-30 kids in a room, and forcing them to sit still, read, write, do math and learn to spell you are probably going to have discipline problems. True or False?

False, but this is misleading because I am asked to give one response to three points. (1) A teacher in grades 4- 12 can have 30 students in a classroom or 10 students in a classroom, but the instruction (what the teacher does and what the teacher has the students do) depends upon the expertise of the teacher. Certainly, classes with large teacher-student ratios at the primary grades--where academic skills and self-concepts are developed--ask teachers even with exceptional teaching expertise to do the impossible. (2) Any kind of force breeds a negative reaction. Although students can read, write, do math, and learn to spell while sitting still, unless some student activities are built into instruction, discipline problems will increase--regardless of the classroom population, large or small. (3) A discipline problem becomes a discipline problem when the teacher labels it a discipline problem. For example, an action by one teacher is labeled a problem, while another teacher realizes the same irresponsible behavior is an attempt by the student to react to a frustration. This second teacher works collaboratively with the student, whereas the first teacher’s actions does something to the student.

4. I have often thought that discipline problems could be minimized if we stopped all this social promotion. A child in the fourth grade who is reading at a second grade level is certainly going to be problematic in the schools, and yet we seem to push kids ahead regardless?

The two are not related. Social promotion is not the problem. The social agenda of inclusion where teachers have students with wide ranges of skills is most troubling and adds to discipline problems. The disparity in skill levels increases the higher the grade level. Inclusion worked in one-room schools but not in the current factory system of schools where success is measured by passing standardized tests, rather than building on students' strengths to promote positive mindsets about learning.

5. Some teachers indicate that the vast majority of the kids are great, but some of the special ed kids (children with autism, mental retardation, and learning disabilities) present problems with which teachers are not prepared to cope.

This is true, so these teachers need to be trained and given additional assistance, or special classes should be established for these students. Placing these students in regular classrooms (inclusion) has disadvantages for these students as well as for the "regular" students who are deprived of their own special time with their teacher.

6. Teachers seem to be continually asked to do more and more in the same time period. Does this stress cause discipline problems?

Stress is related more to how the teacher responds to challenges, than the challenges themselves. But to answer the intent of your question, teachers are now required to perform tasks and be accountable for expectations beyond the reasonable.

7. What are your top ten suggestions for teachers in this age of No Child Left Behind (NCLB)?

(1) The law employs threats, punishments, and pernicious comparisons to "motivate." Nothing based on negative foundations ever lasts. In addition, the law can only be justified politically, not educationally. None of the standardized measurements used are valid or reliable for the purposes for which they are used in NCLB. Teachers should focus on their teaching and student learning--rather than the ranking by NCLB or basing a youth’s evaluation on the score of standardized tests, where half inevitably fall below average. (2) Reduce the emphasis on ranking, grading, and other approaches that encourage competition between students--that one "wins" only when another loses. (3) Emphasize to students that they cannot learn and be perfect at the same time. Learning is growth. Failure only occurs when effort is stopped. (4) Have students collaborate more by interacting with each other when the teacher poses a question. Even a shy person will talk with another person. Learning is active, and collaboration has all students engaged actively in the learning process--in contrast to the students' raising their hands to compete for the teacher's attention and the teacher's calling on only one student for an answer. (5) Establish improved relations with students by communicating in positive terms rather than in negative terms. Cognition and emotions are inextricably interrelated. When the perceived cognition is negative, a negative feeling is prompted. Feelings drive attention, and attention drives learning. When a student is emotionally blocked, learning stops. (6) Use the Raise Responsibility System in the Discipline Without Stress^® Teaching Model to foster a desire to be self-disciplined and responsible and a desire to put forth effort in learning. (7) Have students reflect at the end of every lesson or day on what has been taught in order to reinforce the learning. (8) Evaluate procedures so that all students know how to accomplish every task--from how to enter the classroom and what to do after first entering to visualizing when and how to do home assignments. (9) Spend some individual time with each student during the week in order for the student to feel that the teacher has an interest in the student and for the teacher to ascertain where the student needs assistance. (10) Empower students by (a) using positive communications, (b) offering choices, preferably three in order to eliminate any sense of coercion, and (c) prompting students to reflect that they always have a choice in their response to any situation, stimulation, or impulse--so that they need not be victims.

8. Some school systems have a very large number of children on medication. Are we over-relying on medication and under-relying on common sense?

Yes, but the cause is the system that, for example, makes first grade out of kindergarten where some children, especially boys, are not socially or cognitively developed to succeed. Medication only treats symptoms; it does not directly treat the problem or the cause. A more effective approach is to teach impulse control so students can self-discipline. See http://www.marvinmarshall.com/impulsemanagement.html.

9. Do teachers have to have different strategies for urban versus rural schools?

Yes and no. In some urban schools--such as Harlem of New York City, Chicago, and Los Angeles (areas where I have done training for principals and teachers)--more emphasis is necessary at the outset to establish positive relations. The approaches are the same for every area. Only the emphasis differs. In urban areas, especially among children of poverty, relations are of paramount importance. If these students have negative feelings towards their teacher, little effort will be forthcoming from students. In addition, peer influence is of exceptional significance. This is one reason why the hierarchy of social development--the foundation of the Raise Responsibility System (part III of the teaching model)--is so important to teach. I believe that it is imperative for young people to know the difference between external and internal motivation. They should understand when cooperation is essential. They should also recognize when conforming to peer influences of irresponsible behavior is counterproductive for themselves as well as for the greater good of society. In addition, by discussing the underlying motives of coercion, discipline problems such as bullying, can be significantly reduced.

10. What question have I neglected to ask?

What is the greatest need in education today? Response: Education is the only profession that does not train its practitioners to be confident and know what to do when they first enter the profession (classroom)--namely, establishing positive relations and a climate where young people want to come to school, want to behave responsibly, and want to put forth effort to learn. To put it in simple terms, how to have students self-discipline. 50% of teachers leave the profession within five years of entering the classroom. A main reason for this is that teachers are either not trained adequately or they focus on obedience as a means to discipline. The questions of how to  promote responsibility and how to prompt students to want to behave responsibly and put forth effort to learn are not asked. Teachers just assume that these are obligations of students, and the students should naturally want to do what the teacher tells them to do. Beginning teachers lack skills in having students behave responsibly and in promoting learning by creating interest, curiosity, and involvement that prompt students to put forth effort to learn.

11. Do you have a web site or an 800 number where teachers, principals and parents can get more information?

http://www.marvinmarshall.com/ has numerous articles and resources on how to prompt self-discipline, have young people want to attend school, and want to put forth effort to learn. Contact information is at the bottom of each page.

http://www.disciplinewithoutstress.com/ is the site for the book and has a descriptive table of contents and three sections online from "Discipline without Stress, Punishments or Rewards - How Teachers and Parents Promote Responsibility & Learning. The toll-free number for book orders is 800.606.6105.

http://www.aboutdiscipline.com/ explains the reasons that external and coercive discipline approaches--such as rewards, threats, and punishments--are counterproductive for fostering responsible behavior and discipline and for encouraging positive character development.